Oil sample results

[Jskhome62]

Hello all. Joined the forum not long ago after having my bid accepted on a 03 360 sport sedan, so this is my first post. Wondering though if it may also be my last as I just got my survey results back.

Quick summary: boat has the gas Volvo penta 8.1s at 375 hp with about 400 hrs each. During the sea trial (other than the starboard engine shredding a belt which got replaced at the haul out) they ran great. Started right up. Sound good, no skipping/hunting. 20 knots at 3500 rpm. Got a knock in one cylinder on the port engine at wot the mechanic on board thought is a bad coil, but for the short time there ran abt 4200 rpm with no other issues. Compression tests on all cylinders good, Scope of cylinder bores clean - ‘look brand new, nothing of concern here’. Other than a stuck plug in one cylinder the mechanics didn’t want to risk breaking to remove, all the plugs looked clean. There is some indication there could have been a ‘big’ problem in the boats history as the oil pan on the port engine appears to be after market - its black vs red - but cant say for sure. The boat overall will be a bit more of a project then originally expected but overall we walked away with it being a good boat that just needs some TLC as it’s been a bit neglected. All was good until the oil samples came back.

The port engine is showing ‘severe’ particulates on all the wear metals, the starboard is better but also has ‘severe’ indications on a few. The transmissions are clean. It’s unclear when the last oil change was done but it seems there was at least one as the oil filters appear new. The boat has been mostly sitting at the dock as a live aboard for about a year. The running history unclear before that. Only info I can find on line is oil sample trending over time is what you need, and a single result may/may not be a problem indicator.

So I’m looking for opinions from those who have any. Is this a run, don’t walk, away scenario? Are these engines typically robust even with some neglect? Maybe just wishful thinking but could the high readings be due to there in fact being some level of repair on that port engine and the heavy particular is ‘new wear’ caught in that same oil? Know there is no way to know for sure but feedback from anyone with an experienced perspective would be appreciated. I have until next Wednesday to make a buy vs walk decision. Thanks.

[bud37]

Welcome to the forum.....good on you for your thorough engine checks.

The following is what I would do and is only my opinion........If you like the boat present your findings and revise the offer based on the expected engine repairs. The oil samples are telling and the stuck plug will have to be dealt with at some point by someone who knows what they are doing....could be simple /could be a real pain ( read costly).

If there is resistance I would give up and move on.....those engines could be extremely expensive to repair, although oil samples sent after an oil change and a few heat cycles could show a real story, but at that point you will have already bought the boat.

How is the rest of the survey ?

If the price is right it is up to you if you want to take a flier on it, at this point it is a bit of an assumption and guesswork..........good luck with your boat hunting, it can be the the most fun.....

[bud37]

It also occurs to me that if the original paperwork is with the boat it should have the engine serial numbers so you can check for original etc. and service history perhaps.

[Viper]

Welcome aboard.

Ya this is a toss up and will come down to your being comfortable with the purchase knowing the current sample results. It's a starting point but you can't condemn an engine on one set of results only, you don't know the whole history and neither would a pro to offer up a solid recommendation based on just one sample. Most however would just err on the side of caution and recommend walking away so it doesn't come back to haunt them.

The analysis is pretty sensitive, so the results could be from contamination of a previous issue, it doesn't take much. Oil changes need to be done, and the engines need to be run on a regular basis for a while, then at least another sample taken and even then the results are only a small part of the whole picture. Decreasing numbers over a few samples may put you at ease but you need to own the boat to do that. Only a tear down and inspection will tell for sure if there is any appreciable wear of concern.

Let us know what you end up deciding.

PS; post both of the serial and model numbers.

[km1125]

Yea, lots of open questions on that one. I agree with bud37 that you should use it as justification for some price concessions, not knowing what you're really getting into. Also agree with viper that the only real way to know based on the oil is getting a few readings under known conditions.

Was there any rationalization on why it 'threw a belt'? That could be rusty pulleys (lack of use), a belt with internal cord damage (old belt), or some pulleys moving around (bearing issues). That last one would be a big concern.

An engine that is rarely started will have a lot of bearing wear. When the engine is run the oil gets hot and but then when it sits for a LONG time all the oil drips out of the bearings making for a "dry" start each time. Can lead to a lot of wear in the bearings in a relatively low number of engine starts. That doesn't necessarily condemn the engine, just means it may not have as long a life, or require you to modify the oil spec (a bit heavier oil) to compensate a bit.

How was the oil pressure at idle? Low pressure there is usually indicative of worn bearings even if the pressure comes up to normal during cruise.

I'm also curious where the mechanic got the "knock under load" could be caused by a "bad coil". First time I've heard of that. A failing coil (or plug) could definitely cause a miss on a cylinder though. if there's actually a mechanical "knock" I'd be more concerned.

The seller could have purchased the boat with a "troubled" engine (and got a better deal) knowing that they were going to use it mostly as a liveaboard, so they might not have been as concerned.

If you do get it and do get the price concessions, and end up replacing the engine that's a big "PLUS" in my book, as you have a KNOWN GOOD engine for the rest of the time you own the vessel!

[Jskhome62]

Wow! Thanks for the quick replies - you’re all on it.

So should have mentioned oil pressure - all good there too. The 2 surveyors, both brokers and me (I’m a mechanical engineer - not necessarily an engine guy but know about machine performance) were all very pleased with the engine performance during the runs. That’s why this is so concerning or at least giving me pause.

‘Knock’ from the coil should have been ‘pop’ like a backfire/timing issue which makes more sense for a bad/weak coil. We came off wot bc the mechanic was worried abt burning a hole thru the piston. No issue at cruise speed or lower.

Belt was probably rotted; the pulleys had some surface rust but otherwise spun freely. The mechanic said there is a small leak in the water pump on that engine and salt water drip could have caused the belt to fail early but that sounds all wet to me (see what I did there?).

No engine plates/numbers for either side. They’re both 2003 original 496/8.1 ltrs. This, the aftermarket pan, and the comment about the current owner maybe knowing/buying just as a live aboard are probably the biggest question marks - but I do know it’s been run from time to time. The boat is already priced really well for this market so does that mean he does? Guess that could be a good thing though as I won’t be as deep into it when I have to replace an engine. Also agree with it being ok to do all this work as at the end I have a known condition. And I do plan on taking a big swing on the agreed price with this info in hand. At the current price against the fmv from the survey once the deficiency list is done (outside the engine replacement) I’m still ‘ahead’.

As far as the rest of the survey it’s all what I’d consider normal stuff - half of the seacocks ar seized, the gel coat needs a lot of attention, risers and manifolds due, the shower bilge is inop another does not signal a high water alarm but is otherwise functional, etc. - maybe you all would think differently - and overall got a clean bill form both surveyors (again before samples came back and now they’re hesitant probably for the liability mentioned). It’s all relatively small dollar stuff - there’s just more of it than I was expecting right off the bat.

There are bigger items not routine but less important to me. Like the QL bow thruster is shot which I knew before buying (though it’s in worse shape than I expected - a replace not a repair which I know will be costly and almost impossible) and the ice maker is also inop. All the other big systems seem to be working well. The gen set ran well and produced good stable power when it ran. But it would go for about 10 minutes then shut down. Thinking it’s probably a bad temp sensor (or similar) as there was plenty of cooling water flow and the important bits seemed to be working fine - this will be my next series of questions if I buy the boat so stand by.

Thanks again. More to come.

[Viper]

Source of the post ....No engine plates/numbers for either side.....

Owner doesn't have anything? Does he have info from when he bought the boat like which marina? They may have records that include service work, serial numbers, etc. If he has that info and isn't trying to hide anything there's no reason not to share that with you. Tell him you're interested but you need his help to make the deal happen. A little more homework might go a long way.

Post the hull number, I may be able to see if there's a record of it registered with Volvo when it was first sold new. If I find it, I can check for any warranty work done, campaigns, etc.

[bud37]

I will add some observations based on your response...maybe good info for the future.

First I would not have run the engines at WOT with old fuel or fuel you have no history with......that could have been the knock and deadly, although those engine ECUS would probably have knock sensors and would have cut the timing etc to get out of the knock condition in the first place if the sensors are in fact installed. I am not sure with Volvo, but they maybe using GM/delco stuff like the others.

Have you owned a large boat before ? I can say that most things will be double what you think....not necessarily bad but eyes need to be open...

One more ... IMO there are always id plates somewhere unless they have been removed.

Again good luck going forward and let us know anything further......

[Jskhome62]

Hill number CDRR2026I203. And yeah. Only records available are whats on board according to the owner. I went through all the storage and the owners pelican case. Most of the manuals for the sub systems are there but the main manual for the boat itself is not.

Current owner has only had the boat for a year and moved it from where it was in Merritt Island (unknown location or for how long) about 170 km south. Long story but one of the surveyors thought he may have moved the boat to Merritt island from Maryland like 10 yrs ago. If any of that helps.

Thanks again all for being so responsive.

[Alanna Mo Cree]

Interestingly, your boat is two hulls newer than my 360SS assuming the serial numbers are sequential (2026 for you and 2024 for me). They were probably both on the assembly line at the same time since they have the same September 2002 manufacture date. I have about 3x more hours on my engines.

One thing to consider in a revised offer is the port engine is MUCH more difficult to work on or remove in the 360 sport sedan. In the couple of issues I've had, the first question my mechanic always asks is "port or starboard, because port is a ..." In talking to a yard for some more substantial work, they said they might have to partially disassemble the galley for access to some areas of the port engine. When I'm budgeting in my head for any engine work, I double whatever number I come up with for starboard, then double that again for port. Unfortunately that strategy hasn't resulted in any positive surprises, but at least there haven't been any negative ones either.